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deer numbers

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These discussions about deer numbers got me thinking. I believe most would agree that unregulated MARKET hunting EARLY IN THE LAST CENTURY wiped out the deer, not predators. Laws were enacted setting seasons and no shooting does. After many years the deer came back. What is doe day? Unregulated hunting. When they decided go to unregulated hunting everyday, Do u think anyone set down and figured out just how many days this could be allowed wthout hurting numbers.Not a chance.So how many days of unregulated hunting can we have without hurting deer numbers? 120 and counting.
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numbers
Hard for me to agree....the population numbers have exploded in the last three years in our area. I sat one time all season without seeing at least one deer...
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Deer Numbers
I completely disagree....never before have so many huge bucks been killed in La than this past year...the state had too many does, it's about time La got on the same page as other states such as Ms and the midwest..we can produce just as big deer as any other state in the country if not better, we have the habitat. First thing you have to do is thin out the does, and let the young bucks walk and I think since the inception of deer cameras La hunters are starting to do that.
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haha
hunt r never fails to post some wack information. I would imagine that life is pretty rough on you if you think this way about deer hunting, buddy...
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HAWK
Killing does has absolutely nothing to do with how large antlers grow on a buck.It's hard to imagine how anyone would believe that if they shoot a doe then the bucks will grow larger. What makes large antlers is not shooting bucks, let them age and of course protein.If the animals are compeeting for food then removing does would be helpful but rarely the case here in the south with our mild winters.
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wow
Sorry to upset u people, just making an odservation. Sitting in nice hotel overlooking the ocean in daytona beach. Yesterday, last night and today i rode shotgun looking for deer. Between west monroe and orlando, florida, i saw one dead deer and one dead coyote around hattiesburg. 4 live deer and one hunter in apalachicola river bottom. From orlando to daytona beach saw 8 right beside the road.Been coming here for 30yrs, never seen so few.
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does
Killing of does will not make for bigger bucks.The fact is that you shot a doe and was happy and didnt shoot a buck let him grow another year made him bigger. Louisiana has such understory browse( hot humid semi jungle) and so many oaks that it would take a whole lot more deer than we have now to create a crisis of over population. I know a group with a mid size lease in Mississippi . they have killed every coyote they see, they put an antler restriction in place and a 1 doe limit on members. They have let the small bucks walk for 6 years. They are now getting some impressive bucks to shoot and are having fun watching the does and smaller bucks.It is a sucess story for their club.Coyote control and letting little guys walk and a restricted doe kill made it happen and no they are not having an over population problem with all browse eaten causing starvation.
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HAWK
I also am in a club in Ms. with strict antler restrictions but with a 2 doe limit which has worked ok for the last 5 years. The coyote population has exploded over the last three years and our herd has obviously suffered. We are debating on reducing the does to 1 per member per year.We feel this is the only option if we can't get rid of the coyotes. Any one know how to get rid of large #'s of coyotes?
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Bucks
Shallowdraft...do your research...you're oblivious...the more does you take out of the herd, getting the ratio of bucks/does closer to 1/1 makes it harder for bucks to breed. They have to fight, earn the right to breed, and only the dominant bucks earn that right...Better genes being passed on means bigger bucks. That's been proven years ago.
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missunderstood
Sorry people, reading this again, i didnt explain what i meant very well. I meant back in the first part of the last century when uncontrolled market hunting wiped out the deer, elk, buffalo, turkey and ducks. Due to sportsman forcing the passage of hunting laws and the tireless efforts of lwf, they brought the deer and turkeys back. One of the laws set defined buck deer, but there was very few doe days,so we hardly ever killed knotheads, waitng for a larger deer. From the early '70 i've been studying spikes and knotheads. We quit working for anderson-tully because they made us shoot deer at night in the new planted tree fields, and the large majority of deer were knotheads. We were hunters first and saw how much damage this 'legal' hunting did. 10 yrs. ago when the lwf set their plans they were worried about overpopulation. They never imagined the new gear and weapons we now have. I'm just saying no one took these things into account back then and its time for a new assessment.
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HAWK
YOUR EXACTLY RIGHT MR. BUCKTAIL BUT ON OUR LEASE WHILE THOSE DOMINANT BUCKS YOU MENTIONED ARE FIGHTING THE YOUNGER BUCKS BREED OUR DOES. TERRIBLE PROBLEM, THEY FIGHT SO MUCH THEYRE PROBABLY NOT EVEN CAPABLE OF BREEDING.
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HAWK
The theory of does being bred by older dominant bucks producing better quality offspring is true. It works well for domesticated animals and also penned raised deer.Studies I believe as far back as the early 70's and maybee late 60's indicated that although the dominant bucks participated in the breeding season due to their reclusive warry nature especially during gun season they actually do very little breeding. The majority of does are bred by younger inferior males.
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huh?
Shallow-draft, thats some of the wildest statements i ever heard. And most of it is true. Dominant bucks have very little impact on breeding because 5% of the population cant have much effect on 75%. However, why would u think young bucks are inferior, they have the same genes as the mature bucks? Dont get me wrong, i had a great season, killed biggest 10pt. i ever killed. Some of ya'll are like the blind men feeling the elephant, each one thinks its something different based on what he's touching, and missing the big picture. What does the ldw agent teaching your kids deer management, news star hunting writer, top hunting land realestate agents recland and mossy oak in n.la., as well as wildlife agent and writer in florida have in common? Every one killed 1 or less and each one blamed the acorn crop and the weather. As for big bucks, have ya'll forgotten, Shawn Ortego, Joe Hatten, James Mcmurray? All hold or held state records.Joe Hatten still holds tnwr bow record from '95.
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my two cents
The state could care less about population numbers all they care about is money the more hunters in the woods the more money they make . Why do you think they came out with crossbow, primitive weapon which now days are just like a rifle . They make it easier for the average joe that never hunted to pick up a gun and start hunting. Huntr i agree with you i travel for work used to see deer by grosstete 30 deer some nights the same goes for the stretch of interstate that runs thru manchac wma now your lucky if you see 0ne since the new doe regulations . I dont know about most but i love to hunt and watch deer could care less about a doe or spike if a deer isnt 4 to 5 yrs i dont even waste the strenght to pick up gun. True management starts with age thats the reason you see so many big deer killed in la . Maybe wlf aught to emplement a 3 deer limit two buck and a doe or vice versa 6 is just to many. I learned one thing in the last 12 years on my lease 6pts or better shows good results after the third year wlf pulled it and went with the doe a day now we dont have many deer left. Dont shoot does after the second week of dec and you wont kill the heard out. Everyone will have there own opinions on this issue not many will agree .
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Research
I have researched this as well over the last 10 years and I believe killing does is a must. All you need for big bucks is nutricion and genetics. I know that most of La has these genetics but these bucks are in hideing. With the help of game cameras we are now finding these deer that have been missed the last 5-10 years. They need to stop the outlaws form killing these big bucks at night and off season in order for them to reproduce (I know easier said then done). This year La killed some of the biggest bucks in HISTORY of La hunting. Why? Its because we are getting the buck to doe ratios better, clubs are letting smaller bucks grow and we are learning that proper nutricion grows larger antlers. I personally have seen what year round protein feeding does to antler development and fawn growth. So I would say that the LDWF is doing a great job at managing the deer herds and allowing us to harvest at will does.

I have talked with huntr for years now on his research as well. He truly believes that knot heads should be harvested. I am in agreence with him if A. The deer has a larger body and knots on its head (age 2.5 or older) B. If the deer has a black stripe down its back (muley usually 150plus weight) C. If the deer is poor looking, poor nutricion, sick, etc. You would rather have the doe feed than feed a deer thats not going to do anything but hurt your herd.

I can remember as a kid if we seen a 'doe' or someone killed an 8 point that was amazing! In the late 70s early 80s hunting in La was as hard as it gets. Im glad that clubs are managing their herds, this will ensure that our kids will have the same opertunity to hunt as we are now.. I am blessed to have land in Avoyells Paris. The hunting is hard but the rewards are great..
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deer numbers
I've been reading all of your post and I just had to register to comment. Last time I checked, bucks don't have babies. If too many does are killed, where does the future 'Big Bucks' come from? They will be far and few. And now LDWF is thinking about changing one of the deer tags to a 'choice' tag. Meaning you will be able to kill 4 bucks/2 does or 4 does/2 bucks. Are you kidding me! I enjoy going to my stands and seeing deer. It's not all about the killing. It is hard enough to get a kid to stay excited about deer hunting. It will be alot harder when they don't see anything. Let the does walk!
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disagree
Gary there has to be a balance between bucks and does. Look at up north ILL, iowa, missouri,Kansas etc,, for example they can kill ALL OF THE DOES THEY WANT and their deer herd has exploded. If we (Louisiana) would quit feeding the deer, we would see a LOT more deer. Deer have to only move 50-200 yards to feed on corn or ricebran and lay up again. Louisiana has the deer herd. We need to quit feeding untill january and start hunting like the old days. Dave Moreland has a few books out if you ever get the chance read them. Dave tells the truth that most people dont like. More does do not equal more deer. I get the opertunity to hunt deer park once or twice a year they have thousands of deer there. ALL DOES. You hardly ever see a mature buck because he just lays up and waits for the does to come to him. 1 to 1 is ideal ratio we will NEVER have that. I hunt in avoyells parish and our club probably has 30 to 1 ratio. And they dont believe in killing does either..
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huh?
' more does do not equal more deer', huh? All ya'll keep quoteing Dr. Moreland out of context. I've read his books, i've been in dmap, i've talked to those people. Why do u try to compare apples to oranges? Do u want the restrictions those states hunt under? Even people that own land dont draw a tag every year, in colo. u have to own 160 contiguos acres.And i guarantee those states dont hunt does eveyday. You especialy shouldnt talk about hunting in the old days, since u are so young. I think people that lived those days have a better idea how they were. Iknow ya'll have never had a lot of deer, but we did.
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30 to 1
Randy, if u have a 30-1 ratio, obviously most does are never getting bred. Ever occur to ya'll if u wouldnt kill all the bucks before the rut u might get a better ratio? Thats why we dont kill BUCKS until after Christmas, never kill knotheads or spikes, and have a much better ratio. If u think food has any affect on the movements of mature bucks during the rut, u are wrong. They do not eat from dec.15, till about end of jan., then they die.
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Apples to Oranges
Be fore you start talking about how many deer the northern states have i wish you would go look at they're wildlife web sites Missouri has 12 days of antlerless days in select areas,1 antlerless deer per hunter,14 counties only land owners can kill antlerless, Kansas residents are allowed 1 deer of chose with very short seasons. Iowa has 21 antlerless days with rifle & 28 counties don't allow any antlerless.They're regulations in these states are a whole lot more complicated than ours,if they allowed their resident hunters to hunt under La.season dates and limits in 3or 4 years there deer herd would be gone too!
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again
All those states except missouri u have to draw a buck tag. My fathers generation just wanted to bring the deer back to hunt. My generation was lucky enough to benefit from this and we could kill a buck and doe a day for awhile, but not many doe days. So we pushed for bigger bucks. We didnt know that meant cutting the herd in half. So lawf did what we asked, but we went too far in some cases. Now, like was said, our biggest problem is hunter recruitement and we realize we were wrong about how much pressure is ok. Also there was thousands of acres up until that time that are now public that never allowed any does to be killed(tesas,buckhorn;bayou mason, ouachita, darbone nwr, upper ouachita) No one is saying u shouldnt shoot some does, but if u hunt them everyday, u will kill them less. When they first started this evryday, we were hunting 'tamer' deer, now the deer have never had a moment they werent legal so they are all nocturnal. Its not too much feeding, its survival. U would avoid sonic if u could get shot.lol Where was it ever written that hunting should be hard? It should be a fun, relaxing time in the outdoors to see wildlife in native habitat, not a zoo. Why should we have to wade a mile in hip boots to see a deer? Thats fine for those who like a challenge, but what about us old folks, kids, and handicapped people? I dont like the answer to be set special seasons for special groups, bring back the deer and it doesnt matter what we hunt with or how many doe days we have.
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Agree to disagree
Mike we all have our own opinions. Why ask the question If you don't want varying opinions. And as far as to young to remember: I might not be as old as you but Ive been deer hunting the past 30 years. I remember the hard times of hunting. I grew up dirt poor hunting wherever folks would let us in Livingston parish and in woodville ms when allowed to go to the family farm. It wasn't until the 90s that I realized that this is my life and this is what I want to lean about. I picked up every book I could find, talked to whoever would talk to me, scouted and spent every second in the woods learning deer. In the late 90s I became a professional Hunting guide in Illinois. I seen first hand what deer management can do. So in the end we all manage our own land to the best of our knowledge. Me personally I Say kill the does per acre qdma and let the young bucks grow. However IF no one hunting on the particular parcel of land wants to manage it I say hell with em and kill em all..
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opinions
I do want varying opinions, but comparisons to the best parts of other states without the negatives is unfair. Evertime someone asks me a question, i try to answer, but my questions seem to be dodged. Once again u refer to hard hunting and learning in the '90's. Uknow me, u know i aint decrepitlol, but the area we hunted had tons of deer as far back as early '60's. I killed 3-8pts and a spike the first 2 days in '73. ON the club i hunted we had 30 members, family and guests. Before they changed the law from 3in spikes, we killed about 60 bucks each year, about half 8pts. One year we killed 45 first 3 days, about half 8pts and only couple spikes. Most of the spikes we saw were less than 3 in. The first year they changed the law we did real well, after that we never killed more than 30 bucks a season thru the 80's. Also without those 11/2 yr old spikes breeding the does, we quickly became overrun with does. U could hunt 2 weeks without seeing a buck and seeing 300 deer a day. Most people are so quick to say shoot more does, but the real problem is too much pressure on bucks, esp. shooting them before the rut. So please answer the questions and opine all you want, but try not to compare apples to oranges.In florida u can shoot 2 bucks a day, and in virginny u can kill 150 deer per season, but those aint la.lol
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deer numbers
Randy, I grew up in Avoyelles parish also. And I have family members on a lease in Deer Park. They do have alot of does there, but they tell me they see 15-30 deer a hunt. They shoot mature bucks only, and they do kill them. I might not see that many all year long. Everyone has their own opinion. I want to see deer, doesn't matter if it is all does, rather than sitting day after day not seeing anything hoping a buck comes out. I agree with you about feeding them. Deer do not have to work hard to find food and they have learned to eat mostly at night. I think our season is too long also. 5 to 6 months of hunting is too much. Check out some of the other states you mentioned and their seasons. I think it all comes down to money and the state is doing whatever is needing to sell licenses.
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hard hunting
What i cant understand is why hunting needs to be so hard. Except during the rut big bucks move very little during the day. Going in the woods way before daylight educates them much faster than anything else. U can hunt the same stand every day in the evening and not scare them as much as one morning hunt. We always got up about 7am, ate breakfast, and turned the dogs loose about 8. At dinner we came back to eat and in the afternoon we got on stand. Every deer that got run out that morning would be coming back to their thickets. Hunted with dogs 30 yrs, killed about 150bucks, i think 3 of those were actualy being chased by the dogs, all the rest were slipping away. Its very hard for dogs to stay on a buck very long if there's plenty of deer so he can switch them off.
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here are they
Since the season closed i have been looking for 500+ acres new land to buy. Looked in madison parish behind the levee, madison and tensas near tnwr, jackson-winn parish on castor creek, caldwell, southern and northern ouachita, richland. All these areas i used to hunt and there was plenty deer. Not one place has had enough deer to hardly even find a track. Mossy oak, brown, recland, rockland-burke, no one has land with deer on it. They tell u it does, but none of their agents hunt so they have no clue. If anyone knows of land for sale within 1hr monroe that actualy has a HUNTABLE pop. of deer, please let me know.
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numbers
The results of last seasons are in, dmap lands down 40%, behind the miss. levee, down 75%, private land in north la. down 50%, wma's, down 60%, tensas nwr, down 30%. Thiselwaite 50% less big bucks than was killed in 1978, knotheads harvest up 150% than 1995.
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deer numbers
well, all of you are right but we have no control when it comes to the wildlife and fisheries wanting more money.When they ask for more money the state finds a way to give it to them, usually the hunter and wildlife suffer. Alabama wants to increase the season by 2 weeks. This is to sell more licenses. When they do this Miss and la will want to do the same. The insurance companies want to kill all the deer to keep them off the hiways. we all lose so the wildlife and fisheries can have more big trucks and faster boats and the insurance companies can have fewer claims. sad
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Deer Numbers
The number of deer we may have on any given property has to do with habitat, water,food,cover any given property can only hold so many animal's. Taking doe's will help make that number consist of more bucks. the more that number get's to 1 to 1 the more pronounced the rut will become. Genetic's is the main factor in great antler size, sure if you let a buck get to 5 he will be better than a 2 year old, but only genetics will make him trophy class and if that buck breeds at 2 years old or 5 he still is passing on those genetics. If we harvest doe's and let bucks walk, we can get the best out of our property. Most propertys have a ratio of 1 buck to 4 does, this means the bucks can sit back eat whatever some people put out and breed all they want in private. If guys could sit home and have all they wanted to eat, and women would keep coming to your front door, you would never leave home, No One Would See You, same applys here. This is not rocket science. Good Luck
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